215 replies to this topic

[Juni Ori]

Docktor_Worm, on Jun 23 2006, 04:59 PM, said:

...didn't really get me worked up to die in some pointless war.

Well, pointless in what sense? To you? You may think so. In truth it does have an effect on you. And I have to admit, that even if the whole invasion was to secure US oil supplies, it wasn't US only, but whole Western World. So the meaning was actually good - in a sense, from our perspective - but execution and outcome not so great. And I find it foolish to call any war pointless. Every war has a point somewhere. In somebody's personal goals, in some corporation's goals, in some nations/ethnic groups goals, etc...

[Docktor_Worm]

Okay, maybe even if the Iraq War had a point, I think we can all agree that it didn't need to happen

[Sinke]

Tom Henrik, no offense taken.

At this moment, you don't need to be a military expert to conclude the behaviour of American military. I have studied politics, but even that is not needed to understand that war in Iraq has broken not just rules of just war but of common sense as well. Claiming that Iraq should be invaded because they are encourageing terrorism and developing tactical weapons of mass destruction has put USA in position of "we don't talk to terrorists, so we are just going to invade them". I speak this is in respect to USA since I think that this behaviour is infact fatal to American security and freedom. Every other country in the world would face economical sanctions from United Nations if they would make such policies. G-Bay is the best example.

As for the paying-troops topic, the situation didn't change for 200 years. "Ghettos" and "slums" are just terms which are more-or-less modern. They existed before under other names, and were frutiful areas of drafting. Every black American can validate this. Since War of Independence they used the same tactic to draft- keeping a reasonable ammount of population in social insecurtiy. There is nothing bad with drafting for defensive matters but it is quite bad that it is encouraged through injustice in social politics. As you have said,

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Tom Henrik:
People from poor areas join the arm because the army pays and educate.

And those who can pay their own education and health insurance can just live their life, probably playing America's Army.



Juni Oni,

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This requires a little note: concentration camp is not equal to death camp.

Death camps weren't concentration camps. However, death camp is probably the only thing worse then concentration camp.

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Yes, this game is propaganda, but it can be laughed onto and thus nelgect it's supposed effect. Not all will laugh, so you do have a point. However, even as it can grow hatred and improve eagerness to kill Iraqis and Al-Qaida, it won't remove the morale burden of killing man

I don't agree. The point in educating your troops for killing has always been "don't think about the enemy as human being." While all war games have the same effect, it is problematic that this one was encouraged by military of US- a recruiting tool as much as educational one. The most tragic occurances of this mind-control were the cases where kids came to school for a killing feast and forensic experts found out children were applying shooting knowledge from games ( shooting in head instead of chest ) .

[taikara]

stijnelijn, on Jun 23 2006, 09:19 AM, said:

Hmmm so we are allowed to talk about games, but are discouraged to talk about the main issue of the game.

If we say, `graphics are great` its cool, if we say, `people, please do realize this is blatant american propaganda` its not.

I noted before that people take offense on negative comments, while negative comments are needed to improve a game.

You are allowed to post negative feedback in game discussions.

What is not encouraged is continuing a discussion that has more to do with personally held beliefs than the game itself after being asked to get back on track by a mod or admin. I didn't split the topic until two members decided to ignore my warning in the thread by continuing the discussion. You guys obviously wanted to continue talking about this, but it's not appropriate to do so in the game thread.

Tulac said:

Nice, just because a part of Croatian nation did crimes in the WW2 (and of course Serbian hands weren't exactly clean), all Croats are responsible, even those that were partisans and fought against the Ustashe regime?
People like you (on the both sides) are basically responsible for the last war that happened here, can't let go of the past just make more innocent people suffer...

I think that was kind of the point - it seemed to me a sarcastic way of saying that you can't hold an entire body responsible for the negative acts of the few in one country, unless you're willing to take responsibility for the negative acts of the few in your own country. As I mentioned previously, every country has "dirty hands" in some way or another.

Anyway, it may be propaganda, but that doesn't make it bad. There are tons of games that are pure propaganda that have nothing to do with the military or politics (nascar racing, sports games, etc). And I wonder why no one's brought up Food Force as United Nations propaganda.

[Stroggy]

taikara, on Jun 23 2006, 04:09 PM, said:

And I wonder why no one's brought up Food Force as United Nations propaganda.

I think I brought it up in the original Food Force thread, but that was mostly because - at the time - a lot of the corruption at the UN was exposed (including it's different food/aid-programs)

[stijnelijn]

taikara, you seem to be a little biased aswell on this matter actually.

Saying, `hey this isn,t such a big thing its done all the time` and then putting the discussion about it in a sub-forum as soon as you can.

Then i notice your from the USA yourself so i start thinking, got any nephews or uncles in the us army perhaps?

Maybe i got the wrong impression here, but people were really talking about a important factor of the game. The very reason it was made.

[Stroggy]

"Blah, Blah, Blah" isn't a subforum.
Anyway, I think her reason was already stated at the beginning

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Although I would like to encourage discussion (and thus the reason for splitting the topic), I must warn you all to be as polite as possible with this discussion. As it is political, it has the potential of getting out of hand

We don't want political subjects clogging up a game-thread.

[Tom Henrik]

Actually the game was made because Colonel E. Casey Wardinsky (very proud and patriotic American family name) in 1999 thought "Hey, wouldn't it be fun to make a game using the army's in-depth knowledge about warfare? I bet it would be really accurate."


The reason this was removed, like Tai stated, is because it has really nothing to do about the game, and because it is a very sensitive topic that can easily spiral out of control.

Meaning that the game topic is not the best place for it to be.

[DakaSha]

it makes sense too.. you have to think the game topics are the topics that guests and one-time-posters use to get info on the game or help with bugs and such.

it would just suck if they were cluttred with stupid political crap. the people arent reading them for that reason

[Juni Ori]

Docktor_Worm: Of course it didn't need to happen...

Sinke, on Jun 23 2006, 05:08 PM, said:

Death camps weren't concentration camps. However, death camp is probably the only thing worse then concentration camp.

Well, yes, as I said, they are not the same thing, but have similarities and drawing line between them in several historical occasions can be very hard. However, there can be many worse places than concentration camps, but it depends on what sort of concentration camp is in question. Some of the worst concentration camps in the world have been in Africa, built by British local governance. Not to say that US concentration camps for their own population, who happened to have roots in Japan, were much better. But it is also true that still the WW2 Axis concentration camps are thought to be the number one worst. Except of northern most, of course. Still, even in here there were some random executions and hard work, poor food, but still they were quite examplary, compared to any other WW2 state.

Sinke, on Jun 23 2006, 05:08 PM, said:

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Yes, this game is propaganda, but it can be laughed onto and thus nelgect it's supposed effect. Not all will laugh, so you do have a point. However, even as it can grow hatred and improve eagerness to kill Iraqis and Al-Qaida, it won't remove the morale burden of killing man

I don't agree. The point in educating your troops for killing has always been "don't think about the enemy as human being." While all war games have the same effect, it is problematic that this one was encouraged by military of US- a recruiting tool as much as educational one. The most tragic occurances of this mind-control were the cases where kids came to school for a killing feast and forensic experts found out children were applying shooting knowledge from games ( shooting in head instead of chest ) .

Wasn't that kind of my point? Except that hardly no one will come insensitive killing machine by playing games. True, that there are exceptions... And how can we point that this game or that game was responsible, when kid goes to school, heavily armed, thanks to his daddy, whose guns were easily accessible? There will always be mentally ill, spreading mayhem and death around them. Games can be triggers, but hardly the cause.

stijnelijn, this thread is still alive, doesn't seem to be very biased... But of course she is biased, as we all are.

Daka, I totally agree.

[Tulac]

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I think that was kind of the point - it seemed to me a sarcastic way of saying that you can't hold an entire body responsible for the negative acts of the few in one country

Believe me that was millions of miles away from sarcasm, he really means that, I know of a lot of people who feel the same way for the Serbs...

[Sinke]

I disagree, the fact that this game has a political message is important part of it's nature. I find reasons for moving this thread on another forum quite unsupported- however I won't make a big fuss about it. People reading the original thread can come here as well, altough the topic won't be as hot and direct. There is a huge change between Food Force ( a game where you are organizing help ) and America's Army ( a recruiting tool) and now they are under same topic.

But as I said, I won't make a fuss out of it.

As I understand, the game's official site has information about recruiting centres as well as recruitment events.  I don't want that rubbish in a computer game. I don't mind the game itself, but I think this site has much more honor and pedigree and that America's Army doesn't deserve to be here. This site deserves better.



On the concetration camp issue, I have stated that allied concetration camps were horrible to counter quite insulting comment that all Croats were nazis and that the whole issue is black and white.


JUNI:

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And how can we point that this game or that game was responsible, when kid goes to school, heavily armed, thanks to his daddy, whose guns were easily accessible? There will always be mentally ill, spreading mayhem and death around them. Games can be triggers, but hardly the cause.

And this game is encourageing mentally ill to join America's Army, I guess. Why to kill kids in park when you can slaughter 12-year old terrorists in Iraq?

[Juni Ori]

Well, you do have right to have an opinion. Anyways, crew makes the decision, considering what is best for all.

[Stroggy]

I think you're being a bit hyperbole there, Sinke.

[DakaSha]

the game was made by the army. its not for you to decide what should be/not be there.

look at it this way: its a great game that is a free download.. its not like you get 30 days free gaming and then have to sign up with the army.