56 replies to this topic

[Juni Ori]

For starters: don't get too excited and check how many words is a good book length. In Finnish, the number is around 50'000 words - I have 60'731 at the moment, and I'm not even halfway through... Well, I guess I'll never get it published. But hey, I was doing this to get it out of my head, not to get filthy rich in a year! And who says if it's anygood? Friends, who don't dare to say the truth or yourself - neither.

Anyone else?

PS: I'm going to do that side-novel for my Art-thread, however I have now typing going well and I'm fully concentrated to my primary text.

[Tulac]

Nope never tried it, haiku poetry is but the furthest I went into writing.

[DeathDude]

Never gone all the way of writing a novel, other than poetry pieces, little stories, extent that could be seen that way, is a few songs having a bit of a concept, actually do plan maybe some day to write a concept song idea, lyrically at the very least, a mini sort of story, nice challenge hope to do.

[Sinke]

Well, I don't wish to sound unhumble, but I am a published author of short stories and my plays were put on stage. I am finishing studies of dramaturgy at The Croatian Academy of Drama Art and I am freelance artistic-writting teacher.

In any case, if I can advise you- don't caluculate how many letters you wrote and how long your novel is. The most important thing is what those letters are telling people. There were masterpieces which were 2000 pages long, and there were masterpieces of 200 pages. I'm talking about novels, of course, short stories are even less then that.

What are you writting about? If you have any questions, I would be more then happy to advise you- altough art is very free medium and very subjective, if I can help you, I'd do that gladly.

And why not publish it?

[Juni Ori]

That didn't sound unhumble - I think that everyone who has reached something, has right to say it. Bragging is totally different issue.

Well, on average only every thousandth book gets published here. And it seems most of them are only 40-60K words long. 100-150K colossus is thus very unlikely to get published. However! I didn't say I wouldn't offer it to some publisher. I said they don't publish it. Of course I'm going to offer it to every possible publisher - in my opinion years of work and headache is something that deserves some compensation.

I'm writing about political drama, set in fictive ancient / dark ages world, with fantasy elements in it. But don't make a misunderstand me: it does have fantasy in it, but it's far lesser role than in (for example) Forgotten Realms. More like Tolkienish, but even still less, and of course different kind. Sorry, not a single question about writing comes up, but thanks for the offer. If I come up with any, I sure do ask.

I guess these are not the kind of questions you meant, but here's comes few, just for the curiosity: What kind of stories did you write? How much time did you spend per story?

Oh, btw, Tai, I know you have written something, please join us when you come back. As well as anyone with anything to say about writing, story-telling styles, overall anything about writing. Topic says Novel-writing, which I regret. Poetry, go ahead Tulac, if you have anything to share with us. Lyrics, go ahead DD. I'd like to keep this about writing, not posting mega-long stories. Short examples, why not, especially if they are important to describe what you wanted to say.

[Sinke]

You should offer your work. Altough I don't know the "unwritten rules" of publishing in your country, I believe people are very interested in newer generations. Here in Croatia one can't brag a lot, I must say. People are interested in writers , altough maybe this is my impression since I am educated as a professional and thus my work is always considered by editors.

Today people can actually write about anything, I just mentioned that in one of my essays the other day- we really don't have certain "mainstream" anymore. In literature, we have very developed fantasy while in theatre we are in the phase of certain neo-realism, if not even neo-naturalism. This strange practice isn't bad for writters, but it is giving people studying theory of art a hard time.

But fantasy isn't hard to sell today, so I believe you should have chances with editors. My advice is something you already mentioned- don't go too far in fantasy. The best fantasy writters always gave more attention to characters and to "real story" then to fantasy elements. Every time a magician uses a spell he doesn't need- the story loses it's power.

During my years of writting, I actually managed to learn  writting extremely fast. So I rarely write anything longer then two days, if we are talking about shorter forms. And I'm not much of a systematic writer, I wrote love stories, comedies, science fiction and tales for children. Writting for children is most joyable, but I honestly think it is also the hardest- especially if you seek new forms of communication with your readers.

In reality, I write plays much more. I started writting musical today, with help of a collegue from Musical Academy. We have fair chance of putting it into professional theatre. But we both wish to be completely satisfied with the final version before we go on stage.  To write a 100-pages play it usually takes two months for me- if I write every day. I do a lot of research before writting and I have a habit of leaving text alone for few days and then I go back to it so that I can have a more objective stand about what I wrote.

The musical is about Saint George, a saint known as a dragonslayer. Altough being one of the most famous saints in Catholicism, facts are very rare about his life. He died as a martyr. In my musical, Saint George is a common knight which makes fun out of the stories people say about him ( that he flies, and that he lifts mountains with his hand ) while entering as a third angle in the love triangle on a certain court. This love story is one of core elements of the play. The other is George's past. While people made up tons of stories which made Saint George a hero of the ancient times- many of them are just folktales. But the one is true- George indeed found and slayned a huge green dragon which troubled one kingdom.

Adding this element, I wanted somehow to demyth the image of St. George and present him as a person of flesh and blood. But on the other hand, I didn't want to make him a person without certain mystical aroma, the idea that he is not Hulk doesn't have to delete the idea that dragons are real and that George slained one of them.

You know, many miracles in the world are frauds or overestimation. But I'm more then sure that there are miracles out there- authentical and real. And that is why I wanted a dragon to be real.  To give impression that one can't be sure about what is real, and what is not.

Well, I wrote a lot about my work. Wow- this is unhumble!

[Juni Ori]

You are very correct at what you say about quantities of fantasy. In my story, there's witch who has experienced twice certain mythical powers - and that's it. There's only one legendary artifact - no proven powers yet. And I'm halfway my book.

I've always despised the unlogical and awkward impossibilities in fantasy genre. I've spent months to get my story believeable, "realistic" and logical. How far armies can march per day? I've studied logistics, economy, social structures, tactics, strategies, different units, and their strengths and weaknesses, and many crafts to get things straight. And I'm pretty sure historians, both professional and amateur, will find inaccuracies and big mistakes. But I'm still satisfied, because common reader can't notice them. Though, they may be thinking: "What the hell is wrong with this writer? Why would army march only 10 miles a day on plains???" (Anyone want to guess?) "I'd march easily that and many times!"

Still I haven't went off the tracks, but I've focused to a complex plot and relationships between people. Including love, friendship, hate, passion (part of the passion parts is translated and readable in my art-thread), vengeance, betrayal, you name it. I've included quite some characters in the story, keeping the perspective wider and try to get the reader to understand different character's motives and thoughts. However, this may be bad, if I haven't succeeded very well, because reader can get confused and never get into anyone's head.

[Sinke]

Well, you don't have to break your head with these things. My mentor of film history once said "Big movies have big mistakes, small movies have small mistakes" and I believe he was right.

I once started writting something about air combat. I soon found out that games which give you 120 rockets shouldn't be considered as source of data for writting.

[Potatoe]

Sinke, on Mar 14 2007, 11:20 PM, said:

Well, you don't have to break your head with these things. My mentor of film history once said "Big movies have big mistakes, small movies have small mistakes" and I believe he was right.

I once started writting something about air combat. I soon found out that games which give you 120 rockets shouldn't be considered as source of data for writing.

You. Don't. Get. 120. Rockets? Damn... But seriously, what game?

[taikara]

I'm a published poet, and I've also won quite a few national awards for poems and short stories, though I haven't written anything new in quite a while. My first published poem was the result of winning the state poetry contest in Texas when I was about 10 years old. Don't get excited, it sucked big-time.

I do have a work-in-progress fantasy novel I sat down and feverishly spewed forth about 25k words for in about 8 hours, but I pretty much think it's grossly unedited tripe, though I dare say it has the potential of being an entertaining concept.

[Juni Ori]

Sinke, you may be correct, but I want some reality in to my "fantasy" book. As you took game as an example, I must say that they are usually one of the worst sources. Have you btw noticed how many top class novelists do significant amounts of research to know what they are writing about. And I'm talking about fictive literature. But I guess I may be a little too perfectionist, never satisfied to my product.

Tai, are we speaking of the very same story I've tried to read? If so, yes, it has a lot of work to be edited, but I think it has potential. However, unless I totally remember wrong and I didn't read it fully thanks to my own project, I think it may be a little too unoriginal. I had a small feeling I've read too much similar text, though the feeling wasn't strong.

I've tried to take a little distance to my text and read it as I didn't know the story and analyze what is good and what is not. I'm pretty proud actually, because the story seems to be going on nicely, having its fast, hard action and slower, dialogue and descriptive moments. One thing I've consciously left out: describing characters' outlooks. So far I've described only following things: size comparison in few places, hair color in one and I've described how grim one always is. Of course I've also used adjectives such as beautiful (or divine beauty in one ), but they are subjective descriptions and reader can figure characters in their own minds just the way they want. What I am not satisfied of, and I've been criticized about it, is chapter one's end. It gets too fast paced, like I was in hurry to chapter two. Hey, it's me, never satisfied!

If someone thinks - as I used to - that writing is pretty easy and simple job, think again. It demands passion, without it, you don't keep writing. It brings you headache, frustration and sleepless nights. It distracts everything you do: work, hobbies, anything. But every chapter I get finished gives me so much satisfaction I think it's worth it.

[taikara]

Juni said:

Tai, are we speaking of the very same story I've tried to read? If so, yes, it has a lot of work to be edited, but I think it has potential. However, unless I totally remember wrong and I didn't read it fully thanks to my own project, I think it may be a little too unoriginal. I had a small feeling I've read too much similar text, though the feeling wasn't strong.

Wow, Juni, did you invite me to participate in this topic so you could tell me how unoriginal my work is? Gee, thanks

But seriously, try to at least remember whether you've even finished reading before being quite so harsh. Unedited tripe it may be, unoriginal, I would definitely question, especially considering the subject of your own novel.

Truth be told, almost all that can be written about (at this point in time) already has been written about, and all that's really left to do is rehash and remix. We're limited to writing what we know, and we humans just don't tend to know all that much, really. The real difference between a great writer and a mediocre writer isn't so much the originality of the subject as it is the originality in the way the writer brings the story to life.

In that sense, I think Juni has a point. If he can't even remember if he read my work or not, it's apparently not that good

[DeathDude]

I think the writing you did Tai back in the day was really interesting, has potential to go far, specially since ya said you wrote 25000 words in 8 hours, only so much you can do in that time period, and just with limited analyzing and revision in that time only so much you can do. If you were to go back and forth over say a period of a week and just keep revising and editing then yeah different sort of comparision can be made on the end piece. Still did enjoy the story ya did and think if ya ever do continue it, could go quite far.

Your right that there is only so much you can write about, because being truly "original" is not easy, someone somewhere in the world could have the exact same idea, that your writing about, and just never published it or wrote it down. Its how an author portrays the story through not only the characters but just how the story flows that really sets stories apart now a days, thats not always the case but its one of the elements that can make a good hook for a reader to keep reading and wondering.

[Sinke]

Potatoe, on Mar 14 2007, 10:24 PM, said:

Sinke, on Mar 14 2007, 11:20 PM, said:

Well, you don't have to break your head with these things. My mentor of film history once said "Big movies have big mistakes, small movies have small mistakes" and I believe he was right.

I once started writting something about air combat. I soon found out that games which give you 120 rockets shouldn't be considered as source of data for writing.

You. Don't. Get. 120. Rockets? Damn... But seriously, what game?

Oh, I just said that, didn't have any particular game in mind.

But I think they are in majority.  

[Juni Ori]

@Tai: Ouch! At least I didn't mean (and still can't understand my words that way) that I can't even remember have I read your book to the end. And did you read how unoriginal I said it was? But if you want to compare, I think my wanna-be strong realistic and very limited fantasy style is more original than pure fantasy. But did I say yours was poor? No. Did I say it doesn't have potential? No, quite the opposite. And remember the last line:

Quote

I had a small feeling I've read too much similar text, though the feeling wasn't strong.

Please don't put words into my mouth. Your book has potential, I may even like it, but as long as my head is filled of my own story, I can't concentrate on someone other's creation, sorry. When I'm done, I'm going to read your text in the first place. Also, I did read it pretty far, so it can't be bad!

And remember it's me: blatantly and hurtingly straight speaking me. If you really wrote 25K in 8 hours, I really recommend that you slow down your pace. I've wrote several times over 10K parts of my story, and soon after I've scrapped it all!

@DD: What I meant about the originality, is that some genres have flooded and thus they shouldn't be touched at all anymore. Too much clichés and not much new you can bring to the genre. On the other hand, drama can be put anywhere, if it is good. If my drama isn't, all my background work is worth nothing. The fantasy element is there mostly to protest Forgotten Realms (flooded) genre, where magic and miracles are everyday crap and everybody carries at least five magical items and every fifth can blast city walls with one spell. It's straining. As we spoke earlier, too much fantasy and no real content will only do harm.

The topic, guys, the topic...