215 replies to this topic

[Tulac]

Well if you're so sure of yourself then you can just enjoy the game (which is pretty good) with ignoring the propaganda, in the game their propaganda just made me laugh, sort of like mistakes in a B grade movie

[Juni Ori]

Damn you Tom, you stole my reply!!! BUT! Only reason I'd serve in other country's army would be to get more and wider training and possibly getting some battlefield experience, not to mention hardening myself by killing enemy. Games don't do that, it's the battlefield.

And about that what US Army did to their country, I'm not quite sure what you mean. But if it is crimes against humanity, I have to say that war is ugly, no matter how you twist it. Though it would be nice if troops respected their prisoners of war, but after that propaganda they get just to be more eager to kill the enemy, what else can you expect, but excess use of force. But in the case of actual prisons, the thing is totally different and those inmates should be treated far more better than certain reports tell us. They usually aren't guarded by front-line troops, but specialists, who should do better and have less hatred to them.

[Tulac]

Quote

I'm not quite sure what you mean. But if it is crimes against humanity, I have to say that war is ugly, no matter how you twist it.

The sad thing is that US soldiers get away with war crimes, except the scape goats that is...

[Juni Ori]

Well, consider about any war and wrongdoers are always on the losing side. Nature of the war and politics. Though most blatant cases will be punished and most armies seem to take care of their wrongdoers on some level.

[Tulac]

LCJr, on Jun 23 2006, 04:56 AM, said:

Pretty amusing getting a lecture on morals from a Croatian.  WW2 wasn't that long ago and obviously the Serbs haven't forgotten what happened.

Nice, just because a part of Croatian nation did crimes in the WW2 (and of course Serbian hands weren't exactly clean), all Croats are responsible, even those that were partisans and fought against the Ustashe regime?
People like you (on the both sides) are basically responsible for the last war that happened here, can't let go of the past just make more innocent people suffer...

[Juni Ori]

I forgot to comment about that. And that is offencive without any base, as I don't believe on any level that Tulac, or anyone other here, was responsible for the crimes done in WW2!

[Sinke]

I really don't know why this thread was split from it's original location since the political message is quite evident in the specific game- America's army.  With respect to mods. But I don't mind discussing it here. Hopefully it would get many repliers.

The Croatia in WW2 topic was somewhat insulting ,but I can live with that. For your information, Josip Broz Tito was a Croat, as well as thousands of partisans who fought against nazi regime. Partisans have commited many atrocities in war as well, together with Americans ( Nagasaki, Hiroshima ) and Russians ( mass rape of German woman during invasion on Germany- known as "silent scream" by german historians since it was literally forbidden to speak about it before the Berlin wall era ).  Concentration camps of Allies were literally as brutal as nazi ones.

The present activity of American army in the world is doing more harm to American society and state than any terrorist organization. This period will probably be remembered as the biggest shame in short but glorious American history. Why I dislike this game specifically is fighting against "terrorists".  

As Juni mentioned:

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Though it would be nice if troops respected their prisoners of war, but after that propaganda they get just to be more eager to kill the enemy, what else can you expect, but excess use of force.

Now isn't this game precisely that? I mean propaganda? Haven't you greatly pictured what I have said so far? After playing this game, kids will eager to kill the enemy and use excess use of force- haven't you said that? They literally picture the whole Iraq as terrorist country with thousands of Al'Quaida members- while the country is filled with poor peasants who would starve if there weren't oil in the sand.  

As for military service- the American society found a hole in the law with this education and salary thing. Since they don't have drafts, they have a policy of "breeding" certain areas with economical instability which leads to people joining army.
"You don't have to go in the army, but if you don't you'll end up in this hole of yours for 40 years."

Croatian army is still drafting, which is probably the next worst thing.

[Tom Henrik]

I just have to ask... Sinke, you are from Croatia, no offense, but how can you talk as an expert regarding the American Army?

I'm Norwegian, and I have served in the Norwegian Army, yet I wouldn't call myself an expert on it. I know how it works, and I have really good knowlegde of how certain bases work, as well as knowing what tactics they use. But the Norwegian Army is really huge, and it is impossible to claim that I know how the entire thing works.

Although I do know it better than someone from Norway who hasn't been a soldier.

The American Army, on the other hand, I have a vague knowledge of how it works. Because I have spoken to an American recruit officer for some time, and because I know how troops work - and they are the same no matter if they are army troops, terrorist troops or freedom fighters.

What sets different troops apart is the overall system behind them, which in America is paid service, good social benefits and a medical plan that covers your family. In Norway, it is getting paid 10 bucks a day. For a freedom fighter it is knowing that your actions will one day free the country, and in some cases, knowing that your family will be protected by the force you are in. For terrorists, ironically, it is basically the same as a freedom fighter.

But your last statement:

Quote

As for military service- the American society found a hole in the law with this education and salary thing. Since they don't have drafts, they have a policy of "breeding" certain areas with economical instability which leads to people joining army.
"You don't have to go in the army, but if you don't you'll end up in this hole of yours for 40 years."

??

What law is this, where you have to find holes in order to pay and educate your troops?

Correct me if I am wrong, but would these "certain areas" be ghettos and slum-areas?

If so, then you have placed the wagon in front of the horse. They started paying their troops back when the Americans made their first army, which would be the War of Independence.

They don't pay their troops and educate them in order to drag in people from poor areas.

People from poor areas join the arm because the army pays and educate. And have done so for 200 years. Long before the word "ghetto" even existed.

[stijnelijn]

Hmmm so we are allowed to talk about games, but are discouraged to talk about the main issue of the game.

If we say, `graphics are great` its cool, if we say, `people, please do realize this is blatant american propaganda` its not.



I noted before that people take offense on negative comments, while negative comments are needed to improve a game.

[Juni Ori]

Sinke, on Jun 23 2006, 03:11 PM, said:

Concentration camps of Allies were literally as brutal as nazi ones.

This requires a little note: concentration camp is not equal to death camp.

Sinke, on Jun 23 2006, 03:11 PM, said:

As Juni mentioned:

Quote

Though it would be nice if troops respected their prisoners of war, but after that propaganda they get just to be more eager to kill the enemy, what else can you expect, but excess use of force.

Now isn't this game precisely that? I mean propaganda? Haven't you greatly pictured what I have said so far? After playing this game, kids will eager to kill the enemy and use excess use of force- haven't you said that? They literally picture the whole Iraq as terrorist country with thousands of Al'Quaida members- while the country is filled with poor peasants who would starve if there weren't oil in the sand.

Yes, this game is propaganda, but it can be laughed onto and thus nelgect it's supposed effect. Not all will laugh, so you do have a point. However, even as it can grow hatred and improve eagerness to kill Iraqis and Al-Qaida, it won't remove the morale burden of killing man. This can be gained only by sheer brain-wash, such as Hitler-Jugend and Komsomol used to have. Not to mention USMC, that had easy task to make clearly different looking people inhumane. In Europe US forces had very much harder time killing Germans, as they were very same kind, and thus excess use of force was rarer. (T)here and now the general attitude of US population has grown more welcoming and thus it is harder to make foreigners look inhumane. But it is possible and relieving for the soldiers, as they believe they have justification for the killings. Other thing is that in gunfight, kill or get killed situation, it is far more easy to find the justification. But destroying whole block by ordering airstrike can be a little more difficult, especially, if there's civilian casualties...

Edit: stijnelijn, how are we discouraging to talk about the main issue? Quite the contrary, main issue deserved it's own thread...

[Stroggy]

I think this is a bit of a non-issue.
America's Army won't make you join the US army, much like playing Jane's classic IAF won't make you join the Israeli Air Force or playing C&C Generals won't make you join a middle-eastern terrorist organization.

Furthermore I remember reading that most gamers who played AA were in fact not american at all.

I have played the game myself for a short time and I must say I saw very little actual propaganda in the game itself, indeed I believe there is more 'propaganda' to be found in games produced by independant softwarehouses (and thus not working under contract for the US army)

[Juni Ori]

Stroggy, true, it won't make me, or anyone else here join the US army, but some claim that they have joined, inspired by this game. And is it big surprise that most of the gamers are not Americans at all? Let's remember that there's something like twice as many PC-gamers in Europe, not to mention every other continent and Canada.

[Tom Henrik]

I don't believe the message of the game is US Army saying "We are the army. Join us so you can kill yourself an Israeli today!"


The FPS genre has existed a long time, and this was just an oppurtunity for the Army to try to make a more realistic game in the genre, using their knowledge about this type of thing.

[Shunk Eat Enemy]

Personnally i think americas army is a terriable game. I'm sure recruiters going to schools will make kids join the army better then this game. Besides your not even american? Why should you care what its purpose is for. When i first played this the thoughts running through my mind were when do i get to use a real gun? Not aww gee soon as i beat this im gonna go join the marines! HOO RA! Besides games are for fun play them or dont. Everything is fake.

[Docktor_Worm]

The whole game really doesn't bother me at all. The propaganda in the game isn't that blatent at all, I mean, the most  straightforward it gets is in the loading screen and that levelwhere you have to talk to special forces soldiers (I hate that one), and  it doesn't ever tell you to kill terrorists, it just lets you.
      It'd be one thing if you were gunning down Taliban, but when you are in generic locations, fighting generic enemies, is it really that offensive? The message is about as strong, if not less, than any other modern-setting FPS out there.
    Plus, For the army, there's sure a lot of dying involved in the game, and lying in a puddle of blood 10 seconds after respawning didn't really get me worked up to die in some pointless war.
Once again you have to remember: It's just a game